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author

Thank you so much to everyone for talking with me today! I'm off this thread for now, but will answer questions at a later point if you still want to leave them.

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Apr 14, 2021Liked by Lauren Wolfe

Thank you for posting the pictures along with the posts. It is very hard to visualize what the Congo looks like as well as the dwellings and clothes.

How difficult was the culture shock when you left DRC and returned to New York?

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author

Oof. It's unbelievable. And it has been on every dangerous reporting trip I've done. But it hits me every time that the girls and women I met can't leave their horrendous circumstances, so I also feel incredibly, randomly lucky. One time, after getting back to Istanbul from the Syrian border, I just couldn't deal. I was in a fancy hotel room and the refugees were back there in half-crumbled "houses" with no running water, dealing with violence and fear. I'm always out of sorts for months when I get back to NY.

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Apr 14, 2021Liked by Lauren Wolfe

I can't even imagine.

Are girls in the Congo educated to the same level as boys? Do they have similar opportunities? Did the locals treat you differently because you were a woman?

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author

No and no, and no, because I was a foreigner. Or maybe some men did, but I'm used to it.

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Ooh, Naomi, now you’re getting into the heart of some major issues. Lauren will respond, but the inequality in the southern African countries I’m more familiar with is staggering. One tiny example: even here in South Africa, girl children are hamstrung because they lose so many school days when they menstruate.

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author

Same thing in DRC and too many countries. Girls tend to drop out once they start menstruating. I'll find some links to stuff I've done on this, but here's one I did on what is happening in eastern Congo: https://www.womensmediacenter.com/women-under-siege/simple-innovation-keeps-girls-in-school-away-from-child-marriage-in-drc

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author

Also, in DRC and other places, families can only afford to send maybe one child to school, so they send a boy. School fees are exorbitant.

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Apr 14, 2021Liked by Lauren Wolfe

Can't get over that the girls have to hide washing their underwear or their fathers will think they are prostitutes.

Is there anything happening there to spark hope for women?

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author

There are some incredible people working on behalf of women. People like my friend Mama Leki, who was extraordinary. We lost her to Covid last summer: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/03/obituaries/mama-leki-dead-coronavirus.html

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I’m going to forward this to some of the NGOs I know working to distribute sanitary products to girls here. Thank you!

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Apr 14, 2021Liked by Lauren Wolfe

Even in South Africa? I thought that was in the past.

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No, the poverty and inequality persist here

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Apr 14, 2021Liked by Lauren Wolfe

I thought that women had more opportunities in South Africa than the rest of the continent. I'm sad to be wrong.

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This is not so much a question as a wish: I really hope you’re going to turn this particular story into a book...

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author

I tried a few years ago. Publishers and agents said it was "too dark," which I find absurd. Look at all the true crime and fictionalized violence people read and watch. I'd actually prefer to make a movie at this point (not a doc).

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author

I'd be able to fictionalize things that need to be to keep people safe. And I would make a version of Bodeli, or multiple incredible people (like Dr. Mukwege and others), the protagonist(s).

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Apr 14, 2021Liked by Lauren Wolfe

The story definitely needs to be told. We get such a skewed view of international news, at least in the U.S. We heard about Boko Haram and the kidnapped girls but this was completely off the radar.

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author

Which is messed up because I published many stories about it in major outlets. But yes, nobody seems to have heard about it until I became infamous a few months ago. :) One of the best things to come out of this period in my life is having more readers learn about what happened there. What life is like for women and girls in too many places.

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Ah man, I hear you. I love a privileged life at the southern tip of Africa, but my heart is all over this continent of mine. I’m glad there was this one silver lining, and I’m one of those readers who wouldn’t have known about it.

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I find that incredibly bizarre. But yes, a movie has great potential.

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author

Glad you think so. Now I just need to get a Hollywood person interested.

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I just tweeted Reese Witherspoon. You never know. Hopefully whoever does her social media will pass it on!

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Apr 14, 2021Liked by Lauren Wolfe

Thats a fabulous idea! Thanks!

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Apr 14, 2021Liked by Lauren Wolfe

Ron Howard comes to mind too. I read somewhere he prefers to use true stories to make films.

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author

I'd love a black woman to take the reigns. Kerry Washington, or Ava Duvernay, or a million others...

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Or a documentary. Just throwing out an idea here, but Oprah Winfrey might be interested in working on this.

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author

I've already had good feedback from some big names on doing a documentary. But I feel like it'd be too dangerous, and not how I want to tell this story again. But thanks.

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I think fictionalising is the way to go. It protects everyone as you say, but still gets it out there. It also won’t retraumatise the girls by having to re-interview them...

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Apr 14, 2021Liked by Lauren Wolfe

Was this an "open secret" like Harvey Weinstein, or were the authorities genuinely unaware of the actions of this man and his followers? Is there any way to help these victims? Any specific organizations to fund? I know it's hard to help a specific person or group via NGO, but I've been traumatized and then expected to just get better.

They have been disabled as surely as if they'd lost an arm, but that's going to be invisible to the world. I see a certain benefit to that invisibility, but the cost will be help and healing they'll need for years. Sorry for pontificating.

Are you okay? 2021 has been unkind, and this is an intense story.

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author

It was actually something that only a handful of people knew when I figured it out. It's too dangerous to ask too many questions in a place like DRC. At least one activist was killed for speaking out about the Kavumu rapes at the time. But since Bodeli was a police officer for the government, I felt strongly that the government knew and wasn't acting, which led to my doing this: https://chills.substack.com/p/how-a-journalist-chases-a-monster-79a

And yes! You can contribute to the fantastic work being done in DRC by international NGOs like Physicians for Human Rights or Trial International. Or to Panzi Hospital. Or to Coopera, the primate organization near Kavumu that also gave therapy for the girls (one staffer is also a psychotherapist).

I held a GoFundMe after the Guardian stories published and raised $20,000 for PHR, Coopera and one of my favorite Congolese women's rights organizations, Maman Shujaa. I've been thinking of reviving it, but the last time I was doing it I then started trying to get people to donate camera and computer equipment to local journalists, sewing machines to an amazing group of disabled women's activists who have a small business sewing (on ancient, 1920s-ish machines), helping a friend flee the country and on and on. I actually hired an intern to help me. But eventually, I became overwhelmed and had to stop all of it. Step away for a while. I'm wary of feeling that way again. I guess I find it hard to not try to do what I can on too many fronts. Which is why I've been sticking to journalism for a while now.

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author

And thank you, I'm fine. I hope you're well in all this madness too.

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Thanks for that info! And thank you, I'm doing good.

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Apr 14, 2021Liked by Lauren Wolfe

Are you researching anything you can share with us now?

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author

Yes, it has to do with this: https://chills.substack.com/p/i-interviewed-4-wwii-nazis-and-then

For me, I do better reporting when I can meet people and touch things. Covid has obviously paused all of that. But returning to this story about Congo and retelling it in a new way with new details, and recovering very old audio I'd recorded like above of the Nazis, has been incredibly gratifying in the meantime. Thank you so much for all your questions and thoughts today!

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Thank you so much! It was wonderful.

Sending you and Moose happy thoughts!

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What do you do to keep yourself sane? The stories are so dark and so heavy, that even reading them is difficult to bear. I can’t even imagine what it’s like to know people firsthand and see what they went through. How do you remove yourself from the stories, so you can live your own life?

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author

I've done a terrible job for the most part. I have my own PTSD and I can't say it helps experiencing such traumatic things and listening to people with their own PTSD. I have, historically, coped badly when I return home. Finally, after coming back and drinking too much, yelling at my ex for no reason, never sleeping, etc. etc. I seem to have settled on working my face off. The first time that happened I think I wrote eight 2,000 stories in a week. I've found a happier medium since, fortunately.

It's also gratifying to do my job — which is listen to their terrible stories and then make sure that people who "matter" hear them. Those people (government officials, etc.) may do nothing after that, but I always hope it moves the ball forward toward justice at least a nudge (and if not justice, then at least more understanding of what goes on in the world). I wrote a bit about this here: https://chills.substack.com/p/how-a-journalist-chases-a-monster-bd5

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Apr 14, 2021Liked by Lauren Wolfe

I’m glad to hear that you found “a happier medium”. Your stories are captivating, thank you for reporting them. I hope you can put them all into a book. I saw the comment where you said editors thought it was too dark. Yes, it is dark to read. But it actually HAPPENED to people who are still living. Even dark, your stories should be out there nevertheless, so people are aware what is going on in the world to girls and women. I will be rooting for you to either get a book published or a movie. The subject is difficult, but necessary. Godspeed.

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author

Thank you very much.

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Is David able to live with his family again and what is he doing now that this case is over? What a special person he is. Through your writing I feel like I know him.

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author

I'm not sure where his family is now, whether they are back in DRC or if he's with them where they were. But he is safe enough now to give me permission to finally use his name, so that's great. He's unbelievably strong and smart. And kind, truly. I wish I could tell a particular story about something that happened, but I'll just say he showed me incredible care when I was in a bad spot.

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Next time you’re in contact with him, please tell him there are people all over the world who thank him for his courage and for not giving up. And if he ever needs to travel to Cape Town, he has a place to stay with me.

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author

I will! (And I can't wait to make it to Cape Town one day. Hopefully meet you then!)

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Oh, and you have a place to stay, too!

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Apr 14, 2021Liked by Lauren Wolfe

Glad to hear he is safe and also glad he was there for you when you needed it.

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Given all you endured and learned while working on this story, what are the "teachable moments" you'd like other journalists to understand about what you shared? And, is there anything in your reporting or the efforts you undertook that, if you could do them over, you would do completely different?

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author

I'd like for journalists who cover really sensitive stories to work on best practices for interviewing survivors. And for keeping them safe in our coverage, whether that's while we're working on the ground or in actual publication. And, I think, that while this kind of reporting isn't for everyone, a healthy dose of fear is okay, but you shouldn't let fear stop you from doing a story. Just do your due diligence and be very careful.

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And I haven't thought about what I would do differently, if only because the whole thing was like flying by the seat of my pants and still feels that way. I'll think about this one. The fact that I never got anyone killed or hurt is just a kind of relief I can't explain.

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If you were to go back to the Congo now, how would you be received? Would your life be in danger or would they recognize you as a hero?

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Last time I was trying to go back (for the trial, a year later), I had to halt my plans because I was told I'd likely be killed if I came back. I thought my friends meant by the militia, but they said, "No, it'd be the government. They kill."

There is a new government in place now, but I still think it's too dangerous for me.

The families themselves sent me a video a couple years ago to thank me. It was gorgeous. So yeah, government and militia, not so much. People involved in the case at Panzi, in the village, etc.=all good.

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I’m glad you listened to their advice. Hopefully one day it will be safe for you to return...

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I know I'm very late, but if you see this, I'm curious about part 3. At the end, you write:

"A few days after our detention, we met up with more than a dozen families of the girls (and some of the girls themselves) at a secret location.

While seated in a crowded, dark wooden space, a vaguely distracting pig munching on the grass just outside the open doorway grunted, alerting us to two men in suits approaching. While they were still out of earshot, Jack jumped up to go see what was going on.

The two men, it turned out, were from ANR.

They didn’t know why we were assembled, and they were not at all happy about it.

We all froze."

How did you all get out of or through this? Did you run and hide? Did Jack talk your way out? Did you all lie and say you were asking these families about helpful/harmful NGOs? Or was the cat just basically out of the bag at that point? And did it make interviewing the girls harder - for them or you - after that kind of confrontation? Or were they/you just sort of used to intimidating tactics like this (if one can ever truly become acclimated to fear)?

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I’m late to the AMA and I’m trying to read quickly through the comments to see if this has been asked- has writing this substack been therapeutic for you in terms of processing the trauma? Also, have you been able to keep in touch with the families and the girls in Kavumu?

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author

No worries! And no, it hasn't been asked. And I think it probably has helped, yes. But I've worked with a therapist for many years on dealing with the stories I cover and this one especially. I think I've gotten through the worst of it and getting convictions made it all so worth it. But I'm safe now, and nobody there is, or will be anytime soon, with many militia members still in that village, and the general instability of DRC. One of my sources has had to flee the country multiple times after threats and assassinations attempts, and now he's being dragged through courts for speaking out against the men.

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author

And I haven't spoken directly to the families for a few years, but I get updates on them from others.

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Apr 14, 2021Liked by Lauren Wolfe

Because of the governmental dysfunction in DRC, it definitely feels like a stunted justice, if that makes sense. I’m trying to think of a better way to phrase that. The government can’t/won’t pay restitution, provide safer housing or long term therapy for the girls. When I tried to get a program going for assessing eye maladies in the Masaii Mara it became so convoluted trying to coordinate things from the US that I finally gave up and realized I just have to go back to Kenya, and now to wait for when it’s safe to travel again.

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Agreed. But I will say that at least in this case, there was a rare conviction for crimes against humanity (and a rare conviction at all) for the mastermind and some of his men. And, as far as I know, they're still in jail, years later, which is unusual (aka they haven't escaped or bribed their way out).

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Have any of the families named their daughters Lauren? I'm betting there will be a whole generation of girls named after you.

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Hahahaha I truly doubt that. I'm hoping for a lot of Davids. But it was pretty awesome in the video the families sent me hearing them try to pronounce both my names, as I'm sure it was hilarious to them how I tried to pronounce theirs. (Although Congolese names have NOTHING on Rwandan ones. Wow, those...)

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Was the trial legit or was it a kangaroo court?

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author

Legit! But it was a circus, for sure. On the defense's side. I mean, insane antics. It was legit though because groups like PHR and TRIAL International worked with prosecutors for years to ensure it would be. It's actually only the second trial, I believe, where the women witnesses were given coverings and other protections. Look up "Minova trial" to see some crazy costumes (and fantastic photos by Diana Alhindawi) the women were give to wear. At least in Kavumu, the women were covered in head-to-toe patterned cloth. I'll post photos in an upcoming entry.

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Apr 14, 2021Liked by Lauren Wolfe

Wow. You probably could make a whole movie about the trial!

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Not sure if I missed this in the posts, but did you ever learn how the families weren't awakened when the girls were abducted?

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author

You haven't. I'm going to talk about it in an upcoming chapter on the trial, but yes, there was a kind of powder. I wrote a bit about it in Part 7, and why Bodeli thought there likely was: https://chills.substack.com/p/how-a-journalist-chases-a-monster-331

When I checked recently to see if anyone could tell me at this point what it actually was, my sources didn't know. But I have not yet asked Bodeli or a couple others who may know.

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Then, do you write thousands of words and cut it down? Or are you more economical when you write. With a story like this, I imagine it’s especially important to trust your editor. Did you? Also, how does fact checking work for a story where the sources are in Africa and not necessarily easily contactable. How does fact checking work for a story like this regardless of location, actually. I imagine the staff need to be mindful to not retraumatise your sources? I also imagine there’s a high level of trust in you, as the journalist? No need to answer all these!

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author

I worked with an editor at The Guardian who I hadn't worked with before. She was incredible. In this case, I wrote THOUSANDS of words, but she helped me get it into a readable length and shape. If I am given a specific word count by an editor, I stick to it. In this case, she hadn't.

As for fact-checking, I was given access to various documents on certain things, and things that were not officially documented I always had multiple sources on. That's the way to work no matter what story you're doing. And I prefer that editors never trust reporters. :) I've always worked as both, and you need to be each other's fact-checkers/fact-check reminders.

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Sorry, I realise you might actually not know this. I meant the fact checkers at The Guardian.

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Ahhh, I'm not sure they have any. Most outlets do not anymore because of the cost. As media has been dying over the last couple of decades, fact-checkers were some of the first to go. Editors are doing double duty, and reporters need to be doing that too.

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I started out as a copy editor and remember having to check every single fact - it’s journalism’s loss. But yes. I guess they need to know be absolutely sure they work with journalists they can trust to get it right.

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Yes, and the copy desks are mainly gone too. NYT killed their entire desk a number of years ago. All editors do triple duty, really: editing, copyediting and fact-checking.

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And even the best journalists get facts wrong. Trust me, I've edited them.

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Also, did the people you spoke to in the DRC ever contact you to tell you how disheartened they were at the lack of progress? If so, what was your response?

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Constantly. For years. It's partly what made me finally go there again to investigate. They all knew we were each limited in what we could do, so it was a big misery-fest.

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How did you deal with the waiting? The wheels of justice turned particularly slowly in this case, how did you stay sane and not say anything?

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UGH. I really didn't. I was frantic. For months. I guess I just kept reporting, which kept me feeling connected to the story and like I was at least doing something, even if it wasn't helping yet.

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